If anyone would like any of these questions added as a separate post for open discussion on this website please leave a post comment here and I”ll set it up as soon as possible.
1. Is the Government changing the status to not return land to Charitable Trust’s?
The government has returned assets to charitable trusts in the past. Further confirmation of the status of charitable trusts, as the legal form of a ‘post-settlement governance entity’ (PSGE) will be confirmed after further consultation with the Office of Treaty Settlements (OTS)
2. Ian Thomas had concerns regarding the Thomson and Clarke block, the land is still being leased and wrecked by erosion and the animals?
The Thomson and Clarke Blocks are due to be returned to the Iwi as Cultural Redress, and protected by an Archaeological Covenant. The Chair will liaise with OTS to ensure these lands are protected returned to Iwi in pristine condition.
3. What is the percentage of votes required? For example if there are 1000 people on register, how many need to vote?
The Iwi should decide these matters, by proposing ideas at the Consultation Hui, which can be ratified in a vote taken by all registrants prior to the Deed of Settlement. Issues to be considered include:
Whether the ‘majority’ includes all those who are registered, or only those who vote
Simple Majority: 51%
Significant Majority 75%
4. Hilary Thomas has attended each Consultation Hui to date, he reiterated this question at each Hui on behalf of his whānau: ‘who is the partner? Who is the Corporation? Who is Her Majesty the Queen?
This question was answered by Ella Henry, noting that the partnership was that enunciated in the Treaty of Waitangi, which is why Her Majesty the Queen is mentioned on the Agreement in Principle cover page, and that she knew nothing about a ‘corporation’ ruling new Zealand. Hilary Thomas did not agree with that answer, which was noted in the minutes of the Hui.
5. Does Ngātikahu ki Whangaroa Trust Board have any land?
As per its Constitution, the Ngātikahu ki Whangaroa Trust does not own land, its sole purpose was to negotiate and settle WAI 116.
6. Is Otangaroa bringing Takakuri Block into the Claim?
This question was answered by the Chair, as a representative of Otangaroa Marae. He noted that the Takakuri Block was part of another Treaty Claim, and that was similar to other areas of overlapping interest to neighbouring Iwi.
7. NKKWTB is only representing two hapū?
As per the Constitution, and as articulated in the AIP, the Ngātikahu ki Whangaroa Trust, represents the following:
Hapū
Ngāti Aukiwa, Ngāti Rangimatamoemoe, Ngāti Roha, Ngāti Rua, Te Hoia, Kaitangata, Te Pohotiare
Marae
Taemaro, Waimahana, Taupo Bay, Otangaroa, Waihapa, Mangatowai and Waitaruke
8. Can a PDF Registration form be put on the website for people to download?
This has been done
9. The online registration from, you can now choose multiple marae. Why has it been changed?
Feedback from whānau asked for people to put more than one Marae or Hapū, as they had more than one parent or tūpuna from Ngātikahu ki Whangaroa. This would not affect the number of votes they have when it comes to ratification, as it is ‘one person, one vote’.
10. PSAG – will there be something in writing to keep tino rangatiratanga?
This was a debatable question, as some believe that tino rangatiratanga (self-rule) is possible, whilst others believed that tino rangatiratanga implies taking care of oneself (self-determination). No Treaty settlement to date has resulted in self-rule, but some have enabled their Iwi to gain a greater degree of self-determination.
11. Kaitangata asked if the Road Show could go to Karangahape Marae.
This has been agreed. Karangahape Marae will host the Consultation Hui on September 14th
12. Do we have a copy of the minutes from the meeting held in 1997 (slide 4)?
The 1997 Hui on Slide 4 refereed to the Hui held for the Muriwhenua Report. A copy of this was ordered from OTS and would be posted to the questioner, Charlotte.
13. Is it true that there were only 5 Marae and Otangaroa Marae was not included in the Claim 1997?
No, this is not true. Otangaroa has been included in the Claim since it was first lodged in 1987.
14. Was it a fair process setup the appointment process in March 2013?
The process for appointing Marae delegates is set at the Marae, not the Trust Board level. The process for appointing the Post-Settlement Advisory group (PSAG) was decided by the Trust Board, who representatives come each of the seven Marae, and it was considered fair at the time by the Trust Board.
15. Is the package that the Government is offering what we want?
It is up to the Iwi to decide if the offer is acceptable, during the ratification, after signing the Deed of Settlement
16. What happens with the Minority and the Majority of votes? If the Majority win then what happens with the Minority?
As with any voting system, the majority wins and the minority loses. It is important to be registered with the Ngātikahu ki Whangaroa Trust Board if you want your vote to count.
17. What is the voting process?
Everyone who is registered will be sent an information pack after the Consultation Hui have concluded, asking for peoples’ views on the pathway forward. Your responses will shape the trust Board’s actions in the final negotiations and discussions with the Crown, which will inform the Deed of Settlement. Once the deed of Settlement is signed, everyone who is registered will be included in the vote for ratification of the Post-Settlement Governance options, and vote ‘yes’ or ‘no’ on the offer from the Crown. If the majority of the people vote ‘Yes’, the iwi and Crown will progress to settlement. If the majority of people vote ‘No’, the negotiations for WAI 116 will have to start all over again.
18. The workshop that is going around. Are we promoting PSGE or AIP?
The Consultation Hui, also known as the ‘Road Show’ are informing members of our iwi about both the Post-Settlement Governance Entity (PSGE) options, and what is contained in the Agreement In Principle (AIP).
19. Should the Registered people vote to accept or reject the PSGE
Only you can decide whether you want to accept or reject the PSGE options that are put before you. This is a decision for the Iwi, not the Trust Board
20. Is the PSGE not setup yet?
The PSGE will not be set up until the Iwi have decided what form that should take. This usually occurs after the Deed of Settlement is signed between the Trust Board and the Crown
21. Shouldn’t the road show just go to the other Marae instead of Auckland, Kaitaia
The Census data from 2006 shows that about thirty percent (30%) of our Iwi live across all of the Northland Region. There are another 40% living in the Auckland Region. The remainder of our Iwi live in small clusters around the rest of New Zealand. We know there are a significant number of our people living in Australia and other overseas countries. If the Trust Board only held Consultation Hui on the Marae around the rohe we would exclude a great many of our people from participating in these Hui.
22. Was the Trust going to invite someone from the samples we are using to attend the Road Show?
The sample of Iwi who have settled their Claims, as noted on Slide 20, were taken from a presentation given in 2011 by the Tuia Group, who were engaged by the Trust Board to advise on PSGE and constitutional options. The Chair will invite a representative from Tuia Group, Toko Kapea, to attend one of the Consultation hui as they are recognised experts on these matters.
23. Did we have permission to share this information?
All of the information contained in the Information Handbook and presentation are available on the Trust Board website. It is public information. The Trust Board asks that you share it as widely as possible with your whānau.
24. Were they willing to attend meetings and share information about their claim?
The Chair will take responsibility for inviting representatives from other iwi who have settled their Claims to come and speak at one of our Consultation Hui.
25. Will there be further Road Shows after the voting?
There may be further Consultation Hui after the final ones planned in September 2013, if there are requests from whānau in other communities. However, the turn-out to Consultation Hui has not been high, whereas there have been many hundreds of people connecting to the Trust Board through the website and Facebook page, and the Trust Board is putting information from all the Consultation Hui on both those sites as a way of ensuring that this information reaches as many of our iwi as possible.
26. How do they intend to promote the signing of the AIP
The Agreement In Principle is already signed, it was signed in December 2007. The Deed of Settlement is the next major signing in the Treaty settlement process.
27. When there are other Hui on in the rohe, the Trust Board need to be informed about them, so they do not plan Consultation Hui to coincide with other events, e.g. unveilings, and also to let the iwi know these events are happening on the Marae.
28. Why are the Land claims only for lands in the areas of Taemaro and Waimahana?
The WAI 116 Treaty Claim includes all the rohe of Ngātikahu ki Whangaroa, which is 50,000 acres. This amount of land was used in the calculation of the ‘quantum’, the amount that the Crown would give back to the tribe. The lands around Taemaro and Waimahana are less than 25,000 acres. However, the majority of land that the Crown controls and can return to the Iwi is around Taemaro, Waimahana and Ranfurly Reserve.
29. Who gave the right for the Trust Board to carry the mandate for WAI 116?
The Trust Board received the mandate from the people of each of the Marae and in Tamaki Makaurau after elections held in 1998, 2001 (this election was facilitated by TPK) and 2003. At each of these elections, this Trust received the support of the people to carry the mandate. The Trust had to meet rigorous requirements from the Crown, in terms of advertising Hui, maintaining a database of people who attended and voted, minute-taking at these meetings, and reporting to the Crown.
30. Who determines who is eligible to register to vote?
Taumata o Ngā Kaumātua is a rōpu comprising the kaumātua from all around the rohe. Each Marae will also be consulted.
31. Who is financing the Land claims?
All Treaty Claims that confirm they are the body mandated by their iwi to negotiate and settle their Claim are funded by the Crown, usually through the Office of Treaty Settlements, to research, negotiate and settle those Claims.
32. What is the Post Settlement Governance Entity?
The Post Settlement Governance Entity is the organisation that will receive any assets that form the Treaty settlement. That organisation must be elected and appointed by the Iwi who are registered for that Claim. The PSGE must meet rigorous standards set by the Crown, around governance, legal status, constitutional requirements, representations, transparency and accountability.
33. What are the roles of Marae delegates on the Trust Board?
Each Marae selects its own delegates, suing whatever process they wish. The Trust Board does not have a role in selection of Marae delegates. The Marae delegates are accountable to the people of that Marae, and they must represent the interests of that Marae at the Trust Board.
34. OTS are seen to dictate how and what to do. Who is apologizing for the theft, rape and murder of our whenua?
The Historical Account, which is included in the Agreement In Principle and the Deed of Settlement outlines the full, final and open account of the grievances, whether they are theft, rape, murder or any other misdeed which the Crown has either perpetuated, or in any way, allowed to happen. That is the basis of the Claim, the apology and the Treaty settlement.
35. What is the percentage for voting?
As previously stated, the percentage of votes that will be counted as a majority, for voting purposes, will be decided by iwi, after the Consultation Hui.
36. Who or what organisation collects and counts the votes?
The voting or ratification process must be managed by an impartial, independent organisation. Discussions with OTS will assist the Trust Board in finding a reputable organisation to carry out this task.
37. Why do we have to register?
It’s the people that are going to make the decision, who are the registered Whanau. They are the ones that have to vote.
38. Can I register nephews, nieces?
Ella: The chair has said yes. We have Whanau here in Auckland who have taken responsibility to register their Whanau that live overseas.
39. Is it acceptable for me to register whanau?
Yes
40. Whanau that have registered online have not had acknowledgment that they are registered?
An automated message is sent to those with email and a letter will be posted to those with postal addresses.
41. Proxy Voting – if someone can’t vote, can they get someone else to vote for them?
You don’t need proxy voting if you’re mailing out to everybody.
When we get to ratification, there is no such thing as proxy vote.
1 person, 1 vote.
If someone can’t vote then this needs to be discussed further.
42. What happened to the old database?
Ella: We had a filing cabinet back in 2007, that had all the names and addresses of all the people that I had begun helping to collect since 2001, and that file cabinet was taken to one of the houses on Stoney Creek Farm when Celia and Muriel were going to open an office. There was conflict and all the furniture that was in there got taken out and was burnt and thrown away.
43. What are we voting for?
The Government insists that an Iwi has to have a sizeable proportion of it’s total population registered to vote before they will go to Deed of Settlement. The ratification vote happens after the Deed of Settlement and that is a requirement for the land and the assets to be given back to people.
44. What is it that we are trying to agree on?
The 5 to 6 decision’s in the handbook that will be posted out to everybody who is registered.
45. The Trust Board are asking the wrong questions, we should be talking about the AIP
We need to agree on the AIP as a majority so we can move forward.
David: We need to take the people’s korero to the Crown and say “This is what the people want”. It is your comments and questions that are going to provide the trust board with that direction.
46. How many whanau can whakapapa to Kahukuraariki?
There are 5 tupuna whanau.
Ella: I have 4 generations back from me.
47. How many people here have been on the Stoney Creek Block?
How big is it? What is on it?
48. Should we be making videos, taking photo of the land and mountains
We haven’t been able to afford to do this yet.
49. How much money has the Trust Board received? ($554,000)
We can get the correct answer from OTS.
50. Why should it be left up to the Trust Board to take photos and videos?
Why don’t you bring some along?
We are lucky that we have a small group of kaumatua and kuia who know these things.
We have Uncle Davey who has helped our whanau.
The trust board are trying to compile that information as best it can.
51. I need to know who is the TB, what is the TB?
Every trust board have delegates. The role of the trust board as elected by the Marae is they attend these meetings. It is the delegates, not the trust board’s role to go and report. All reps of all the Marae should be here. You have your reps, it is their role to take and present it to the Marae. It is the delegates responsibility to report back to whanau and hapu, not the trust board.
The only way we can move forward is to work together.
52. Where to from here?
There is 1 more hui in Auckland and 2 more in the North. Then that will have covered 3months of korero and collecting information and answering questions.
At the end of the last consultation hui, at this point I suggest the trust board take about a month to simplify all that information. To put it into the mail-out which should be ready to go out to everybody on the database sometime in October/November.
If all questions can be addressed and the feedback from the mail-out, then that should occur within the next year.
53. Who is the Crown?
John Key, National Party, The Queen
54. Are we able to do online conferencing for those who live in Australia?
Conferencing is not cheap and the trust board would have to set it up and pay for it and this would have to be factored into the budgets and would also have to be discussed with OTS.
55. There are concerns about how complex the booklet is to read and to understand. There is a lot of issues around Treaty Settlement, the history of the claim etc. There is also inaccuracies and unintentional misinformation.
There will be priority to go back to the drawing board and look at how we can modify it so that it is more straight forward and accessible.
56. What does the offer mean?
The Agreement in Principle is where the Crown makes an offer to the Iwi. The Crown has been encouraging the Iwi to be developing an organisation to manage the assets after settlement.
57. The monetary compensation, are you willing to look at compensating for the loss of land that all our other hapu have lost. Because you are only dealing with Stoney Creek, which belongs to Ngati Aukiwa?
Minister: A Treaty Settlement is all about addressing a number of matters and that includes historical loss of people’s land.
There is never 100% compensation, like the damages claimed in court, and the amount of compensation depends on particular circumstances and so on.
I can’t come here and all honesty say people are going to get 100% of their lands back because I would be telling you a lie. But I can say what we try and do is negotiate the settlement that addresses commercial and cultural matters and has the historical account. And there is a lot of work to be done on all of those so we can reach a settlement that is fair and just in all circumstances.
58. So if that’s the truth would you be willing to come back again to the table and re-negotiate. Because the term and negotiations for that deed is corrupt. There’s no justice.
Minister: The AIP is a starting point. It is a non-binding exit agreement.
If there are other issues that people want to talk about they’re on offer.
59. Are you an honourable man?
Are you committed?
Would you commit to my tamariki that they will still be free, by putting whatever you need in your documentation through the corporate company that you represent.
Is it true that Her Majesty the Queen in Right is listed in the New York Stock exchange?
Is it true our tupuna Kahukuraariki is the name that we use for the whenua here?
Will your corporation allow the individual to live and allow the hapu to progress and live how we used to?
Minister: There is an Agreement in Principle. I’m not bound by it.
I am happy to negotiate whatever if people want too.
NKKW have the mandate at the moment.
If you’re not happy with that, get your own mandate and test your views with people.
I don’t want to be negotiating with individuals because ultimately it’s the Iwi that I want to reach a settlement with.
I strongly believe that it is the right thing to do.
60. Is it because we are such a small iwi? Tainui are walking around with millions.
Is it because they have the numbers, or because they are so important?
We haven’t got the power because we are so small.
We can walk the width and breadth of our land in a day.
One is the size of the land – our boundaries are set, we have 7 Marae. It is about a number. When we talk about Waikato claims we are talking about thousands and millions of acres of land. The injustices of MOW. They were a legislative body that could go wherever they wanted and take whatever land they wanted, and regardless who the opposition was, they couldn’t do a thing about it. Railways were put right beside a Marae without consideration. It wasn’t so much the money that was received. It was the assets received through money, compensation to secure that land back.
The value of our land for the farm is about 10 million dollars. We haven’t got money, and the compensation basically pays for that.
We get our land back and we get all these other things, but we haven’t got money in the bank to kick it off. The Minister said that was then, this is now. I have a different story. So he is quite happy to re-negotiate those things.
We are fortunate, we have a claim – WAI 116 – and we have an AIP that we will work through.
61. Are we hurting ourselves by going alone? Instead of coming under the umbrella of Ngapuhi
I would totally disagree, because Muriwhenua tried to drag us into the umbrella, and then they would be telling us what we have got and what we haven’t got.
If anyone would like any of these questions added as a separate post for open discussion on this website please leave a post comment here and I”ll set it up as soon as possible.
62. So you are saying to me that we all own Stoney Creek?
Absolutely. In the same way as your great, great, great grandparent’s .
63. So you’re saying that I can bowl on over there because it’s mine?
The theory is that at the moment it is being managed by the OTS through Landcorp. It has not yet been returned to us.
64. What about the people who are there at the moment, what’s going to happen to them?
That is an issue that the Crown has to deal with because the Crown stole that land off us and called themselves the owners. And when you assume rights of ownership you also assume responsibility.
65. But the Crown aren’t on there at the moment, it’s Maori. I’m Maori and if I go over there I’m approaching Maori, I’m not approaching the Crown.
But in legal terms, at this point in time, the Crown says it owns the land.
66. So I can’t bowl over there right now?
Well, theoretically there are people who have done just that.
67. But you are basically telling me that we have to reunite, so how can I bowl over there and we are not going to reunite?
First, legally it would be quite good to get ownership of the land back. That’s part of the settlement process. We have not got there yet. We are working our way towards there. And at that point the land will legally be owned by all the people in this room.
68. It will belong to the Government?
Well that’s part of the treaty grievance.
69. But it won’t belong to us?
If you look at other claims you will see how other Iwi have managed the situation, for example Tuhoi only recently after even a longer struggle, have now taken ownership of the Uruwera’s.
I’m not bowing down to another system when I’ve got the same rights as them.
I’m not sure that I disagree with that.
Ella: I’m simply trying to explain the process. I’m not trying to explain the rightness or the wrongness or the morality of it.
70. But they’re telling us it’s legal just because they say so?
Ella: I am not telling you anything that is not common knowledge out in the world.
71. You’re talking about this land at Stoney Creek Block?
Yes.
72. But I don’t see anybody from Stoney Creek here, except that fulla over here. We need to see those kaumatua here.
Ella: I have no control over who comes to these hui.
73. All this has already come out in the Waitangi Tribunal. All this korero. We’re talking about the Aukiwa Block. All those kaumatua who have been attached to all the korero, the historical journey that they have actually done. It has already been implemented. You’re confusing me with the Iwi. When did the Iwi get the land here?
Ella: The Crown will not negotiate with hapu. They will only negotiate with Iwi.
74. So we only have 3,000 acres left?
Ella: Around 3,000 acres in Maori Land.
75. So that is what we are fighting over?
Ella: No, there’s that 47,000 acres and the Crown is talking about giving us back 8,000 acres of it. Because that’s all that’s Crown land. All the rest is private ownership and the Crown cannot return this.
76. How can the Crown tell us, if we are the partner in the Crown and Doc, what to do?
Ella: DOC looks after certain lands on behalf of NZ. They’re the Ministry of Stewardship of lands.
77. I’m trying to walk with you but I can’t because of the other partner. The other partner is shutting me out of trying to operate DOC lands.
Ella: My understanding, and I don’t know the full answer to this, I can only go on what OTS have told us so far. This Minister, Chris Finlayson, seems to be quite open to giving the land back to Kaitangata. However, it obviously needs to be maintained. Which will have a cost. DOC will maintain DOC tracks, but it doesn’t cost the Iwi.
78. So what happens in the mean time?
Ella: Well that’s up to the TB and the PSGE. Not me.
79. But the other partner can do anything under that Government can’t they?
Ella: No, because once it comes back to us they can’t do anything to it. But it’s up to you and whatever PSGE you create to decide what to do with that land over the next 30 years.
80. Is the Crown a Legal Identity or is it a Corporation?
Ella: I have no idea. I have no view on the Crown
81. What’s the TB doing about Whakaange?
Ella: The TB can’t do anything about Whakaange. It’s not on the table for discussion with the Crown. It’s a historical reserve. It would have a non-exclusive statutory recognition. It is in the AIP.
82. At the time of the conquest of Hongi Hika Ureroa Te Hau, where was Ngati Aukiwa at the time?
To bring the people altogether at one place. There is no take, no korero about someone else. Aukiwa, we are here in respect of the tupuna of Kahukura. Aukiwa is not claiming this piece of whenua. This place was gifted to the Iwi to put this whare on in 1922.
83. Is it still part of this rohe?
Just the whare, not the whenua. We are the hapu in that area. This whare originally came from Taemaro. It is just the meeting place.